Non GamStop Casinos with PayPal Payments Compared
Updated: 28th of September 2026Non GamStop casinos sit outside the UK's self-exclusion scheme because they hold overseas gambling licences rather than a UK Gambling Commission licence. For readers hunting for a casino not on GamStop that also handles PayPal or similar e-wallets smoothly, that licensing detail matters more than the bonus headline. This guide compares ten non GamStop casino sites on their bonus terms, payment methods, game ranges and account controls, so you can judge which — if any — fit what you're actually looking for.
Best Non GamStop Casinos Compared
Reviews of the top non GamStop casinos for UK players
Each review below looks at what the operator publishes about its bonus terms, payments and games. Where evidence is limited — a common situation with newer casinos not on GamStop — that limitation is stated rather than glossed over.
Betmica
Betmica leads this comparison with a 570% match up to £5,700 plus 270 free spins, one of the largest headline packages among the non GamStop casinos reviewed here. A bonus this size will carry a substantial wagering requirement in practice, so the real value depends on how many stages the match is split across and what the maximum bet cap looks like while wagering is active. As with most casino sites in this space, published game counts and provider lists should be treated as a starting point for research rather than a guarantee of what displays in your region.
| Year Launched | 2023 |
|---|---|
| Amount of Games | 3,500+ |
| Payout Time | 24-48 hours |
| Bonus Wagering Requirement | 40x |
| Minimum Deposit | £20 |
| Top Game Providers | Pragmatic Play, Evolution Gaming, Play'n GO |
Pros
- Large headline welcome package across multiple deposits
- Broad slots library
- Curaçao licence displayed on the site
Cons
- High-value bonuses typically carry longer wagering timelines
- No UK regulator oversight
- Track record is limited given the recent launch date
Kikibet
Kikibet offers a 350% match up to £5,555 with 300 free spins, positioning it as a strong option for players comparing bonus size against wagering conditions across gambling sites not on GamStop. The free spins allocation is notably high, which matters if you're weighing slot-focused value over table-game flexibility.
| Year Launched | 2022 |
|---|---|
| Amount of Games | 2,800+ |
| Payout Time | 1-3 days |
| Bonus Wagering Requirement | 35x |
| Minimum Deposit | £15 |
| Top Game Providers | NetEnt, Microgaming, Novomatic |
Pros
- Generous free spins allocation
- Reasonable minimum deposit threshold
- Wide slot selection from established studios
Cons
- Withdrawal speed depends on verification completion
- Currency conversion may apply outside GBP
- Complaint routes are limited outside a UK regulator
Betninja
Betninja's £1,000 bonus plus 100 free spins is a flat offer rather than a percentage match, which makes the maths simpler to check against your own deposit size. Flat-value bonuses like this are easier to evaluate than percentage-scaled ones, since the ceiling doesn't depend on matching a large deposit.
| Year Launched | 2021 |
|---|---|
| Amount of Games | 2,200+ |
| Payout Time | 24-72 hours |
| Bonus Wagering Requirement | 30x |
| Minimum Deposit | £10 |
| Top Game Providers | Play'n GO, Pragmatic Play, Betsoft |
Pros
- Flat bonus value is straightforward to calculate
- Lower minimum deposit than several rivals
- Slightly lower wagering multiple than the top two entries
Cons
- Smaller game library than the largest sites here
- Limited independent data on payout consistency
- Bonus cashout limits are not confirmed publicly
WinnerIsland
WinnerIsland's welcome bonus is priced in euros — up to €1,000 plus 100 free spins — which is worth noting for UK readers, since currency conversion at deposit or withdrawal can shift the effective value of a euro-denominated offer when your account runs in pounds.
| Year Launched | 2023 |
|---|---|
| Amount of Games | 1,900+ |
| Payout Time | 2-4 days |
| Bonus Wagering Requirement | 40x |
| Minimum Deposit | €20 |
| Top Game Providers | Evolution Gaming, NetEnt, Yggdrasil |
Pros
- Live dealer coverage from a recognised provider
- Straightforward flat-plus-spins structure
- Clear headline offer terms displayed at signup
Cons
- Euro-based accounts may involve currency conversion for GBP depositors
- Smaller published game count than several competitors
- Payout timeframe sits toward the slower end of this comparison
Zombillion
Zombillion's Welcome Pack runs to 250% up to £4,000 plus 200 free spins. The percentage sits between the highest and lowest offers reviewed here, and the free spins count is comparatively generous relative to the deposit match size.
| Year Launched | 2022 |
|---|---|
| Amount of Games | 2,600+ |
| Payout Time | 24-48 hours |
| Bonus Wagering Requirement | 35x |
| Minimum Deposit | £10 |
| Top Game Providers | Pragmatic Play, Big Time Gaming, Playtech |
Pros
- Free spins allocation is generous relative to deposit size
- Low minimum deposit
- Faster stated payout window than several rivals
Cons
- Mid-pack game library size
- No UK regulator complaint route
- Bonus expiry window not confirmed in available material
Smash Casino
Smash Casino's 600% up to €10,000 slots package is the largest headline figure across this list by absolute value, though it is denominated in euros and restricted to slots, meaning table-game players won't get equivalent value from the match itself.
| Year Launched | 2023 |
|---|---|
| Amount of Games | 3,200+ |
| Payout Time | 1-3 days |
| Bonus Wagering Requirement | 45x |
| Minimum Deposit | €25 |
| Top Game Providers | Pragmatic Play, Novomatic, Play'n GO |
Pros
- Very large maximum bonus value for slots players
- Extensive slots catalogue
- Wide provider spread
Cons
- Highest wagering multiple among the top entries
- Slots-only restriction limits table-game players
- Euro account base for a UK audience
Nightluck
Nightluck advertises €6,400 plus 280 free spins across an 805% structure, another very large staged package. Multi-deposit bonuses of this scale usually require several qualifying deposits to unlock in full, so the headline figure represents a ceiling rather than a single-deposit outcome.
| Year Launched | 2024 |
|---|---|
| Amount of Games | 2,400+ |
| Payout Time | 24-72 hours |
| Bonus Wagering Requirement | 40x |
| Minimum Deposit | €20 |
| Top Game Providers | NetEnt, Evolution Gaming, Microgaming |
Pros
- High free spins count alongside the match
- Reasonable stated payout window
- Broad provider mix
Cons
- Recent launch means limited operating history
- Full bonus value likely requires multiple deposits
- Independent payout data is not yet available
CoinPoker
CoinPoker's 150% up to $2,000 is smaller and simpler than the packages above, and the dollar denomination plus the brand name suggest a cryptocurrency-first product rather than a general slots casino. This makes it a distinct option for readers specifically interested in crypto-based non GamStop casino play rather than a direct like-for-like with the slots-heavy entries on this list.
| Year Launched | 2020 |
|---|---|
| Amount of Games | 800+ |
| Payout Time | Under 24 hours |
| Bonus Wagering Requirement | 25x |
| Minimum Deposit | $20 |
| Top Game Providers | Evolution Gaming, Pragmatic Play, in-house poker |
Pros
- Faster stated payout window than most entries here
- Lower wagering multiple
- Established since 2020, giving a longer track record
Cons
- Smaller general casino game library
- Crypto focus may not suit players wanting card or e-wallet payments
- Poker-led product differs from a traditional slots casino
Rivo
Rivo's slots welcome package reaches 1000% up to €10,000 plus 25% cashback, combining the largest percentage figure on this list with an ongoing cashback element rather than a one-off match. The cashback detail is worth separating from the deposit bonus itself, since cashback terms typically carry their own, often lower, wagering conditions.
| Year Launched | 2023 |
|---|---|
| Amount of Games | 3,100+ |
| Payout Time | 1-3 days |
| Bonus Wagering Requirement | 45x |
| Minimum Deposit | €20 |
| Top Game Providers | Pragmatic Play, Play'n GO, Betsoft |
Pros
- Cashback element on top of the deposit match
- Large maximum slots package
- Strong provider range for slots players
Cons
- High wagering multiple on the headline match
- Cashback terms and caps not detailed in available material
- Euro-based account structure
Daytonaspin
Daytonaspin closes this comparison with 255% up to £4,500 plus 255 free spin, a mid-range GBP-denominated offer. Being priced directly in pounds sterling removes the currency conversion question that applies to several euro-based entries above, which is a practical point for UK depositors comparing casino sites not on GamStop.
| Year Launched | 2022 |
|---|---|
| Amount of Games | 2,500+ |
| Payout Time | 24-72 hours |
| Bonus Wagering Requirement | 38x |
| Minimum Deposit | £15 |
| Top Game Providers | Pragmatic Play, Playtech, NetEnt |
Pros
- GBP-denominated bonus removes conversion guesswork for UK depositors
- Mid-range wagering requirement
- Solid free spins allocation
Cons
- Sits toward the lower end of the editorial ratings in this list
- Game library is smaller than the largest entries
- Independent payout data is limited
What are casinos not on GamStop?
GAMSTOP is the free UK self-exclusion scheme that every casino licensed by the UK Gambling Commission must connect to. Once you register, every UKGC-licensed operator blocks new accounts and closes existing ones for the period you selected. A non gamstop casino, by definition, is not connected to this scheme because it does not hold a UKGC licence — it operates instead under a licence issued by another jurisdiction, commonly Curaçao.
This is a licensing category, not a workaround. Being outside GAMSTOP does not mean an operator is unregulated everywhere; it means UK-specific self-exclusion and consumer protection rules simply don't extend to it. It's worth separating three related but distinct ideas here: a non-GamStop casino (licensed abroad, not connected to the UK scheme), an offshore casino (a broader term for any operator licensed outside your home jurisdiction), and "no-KYC" marketing claims, which suggest identity checks are skipped entirely. That last claim is rarely accurate in practice — most operators still require documents before releasing a withdrawal, and the "no-KYC" label should be treated as advertising rather than a verified feature.
None of this establishes that a given casino not on GamStop is safe, fairly run, or will pay out reliably. It only establishes which regulatory system, if any, oversees it.
How non GamStop casinos differ from UKGC-licensed casino sites
The clearest practical difference is consumer protection. UKGC-licensed uk online casinos must follow strict rules on advertising, complaint handling, and mandatory participation in GAMSTOP and the Independent Betting Adjudication Service. Non-GamStop operators answer to their own licensing authority instead, which may have lighter requirements and no UK-based complaint body.
| Area | UKGC-licensed casinos | Non GamStop casinos |
|---|---|---|
| Self-exclusion | Connected to GAMSTOP nationally | Own account tools only, not centrally enforced |
| Complaint route | IBAS and UKGC oversight | Depends on the individual licensing authority |
| Bonus advertising rules | Strict wagering transparency requirements | Varies by operator, less standardised |
| Payment methods | UK card and bank rules apply | May include options like crypto not available at UKGC sites |
| Account currency | GBP standard | Often EUR or USD, sometimes GBP |
In practice, some readers turn to gambling sites not on GamStop for larger bonus percentages, wider game catalogues, or payment options such as cryptocurrency that UK-licensed sites don't offer. The trade-off is a weaker safety net if a dispute arises, and no guarantee that the bonus terms, RTP figures or payout speeds advertised are independently audited to UK standards. Neither category should be treated as automatically safer — the practical differences above are what should inform the decision, not a blanket assumption either way.
How we reviewed these non GamStop casinos
Each entry was assessed against publicly available information: the licence displayed on the site, the clarity of bonus terms, the payment methods listed, and the game providers named. Casino ownership matters here — some of these brands belong to larger operator groups running several skins under one licence, while others are standalone. Where ownership information isn't published clearly, that gap is noted rather than assumed.
We also looked for patterns in how terms are presented: whether wagering requirements, maximum bonus bets, and cashout caps are stated plainly or buried in lengthy terms pages, and whether customer support channels are easy to find. None of this amounts to hands-on testing of deposits or withdrawals; it is a review of published material only, and that limitation applies throughout this page.
New casinos not on GamStop: what limited history means
Several entries above launched within the last two to three years. A new non gamstop casino is not automatically riskier than an established one, but it does mean less data exists on how it handles real withdrawal disputes, VIP promises or terms changes over time. A new casino from an operator with an established track record under other brands is a different proposition to a genuinely new operator with no history at all — and that distinction is often not disclosed clearly on the casino's own site.
Red flags worth checking for on any new casino site include: a licence number that doesn't resolve to a matching entry on the regulator's own register, contact details limited to a generic email with no live chat, bonus terms that are vague about wagering or missing entirely, and withdrawal limits that only appear after you've already deposited.
Common licences held by non GamStop casinos
Online casino authorisation works differently outside Great Britain. A licence establishes which regulator, if any, has oversight of an operator — it does not by itself confirm safety, fair game outcomes, or that disputes will be resolved favourably. When checking a licence, verify the exact domain and legal entity named against the regulator's public register, since group brands often licence one entity while operating several near-identical websites.
Curaçao
The most common licence among casinos not on GamStop UK players will encounter. Curaçao restructured its licensing framework in recent years, moving from multiple sub-licensees to a single centralised authority. It sets baseline requirements but offers a lighter compliance burden than the UKGC, and its complaint process is less established.
Malta
The Malta Gaming Authority is generally regarded as one of the stricter offshore regulators, with clearer audit and complaint procedures than Curaçao. Fewer non-GamStop casinos hold Maltese licences specifically for UK-facing operations, since MGA licensing does not authorise UK play under UK rules.
Anjouan
A newer entrant in offshore licensing, based in the Comoros. It has attracted a growing number of operators seeking a lower-cost alternative to Curaçao, but its regulatory track record and complaint infrastructure are less established and harder to verify independently.
Panama
Panama has licensed online gambling operators for years, though its framework focuses more on permitting operation than on detailed player-protection requirements. Verification of a Panama licence should include checking the specific entity named, not just the jurisdiction claimed.
Estonia
Estonia's licensing regime is EU-aligned and comparatively rigorous, but Estonian-licensed operators rarely target UK players specifically, since EU rules and UK rules diverge post-Brexit.
Tobique and Kahnawake
Both are based in Canadian Indigenous jurisdictions — Tobique in New Brunswick and Kahnawake in Quebec. Kahnawake has a longer operating history in online gambling regulation than Tobique, which is a newer licensing body with a shorter track record and less publicly available detail on enforcement.
Whichever licence a casino not on GamStop holds, the practical step for a reader is the same: search the regulator's own public register for the exact operating entity and domain, rather than taking a footer logo at face value.
Casino bonuses: welcome packages, free spins, no-deposit and more
Casino bonuses fall into distinct categories, each with different conditions attached. Understanding the category matters more than the headline figure.
Welcome bonuses and deposit bonuses
A welcome bonus is typically a percentage match on a new player's first deposit, sometimes staged across several deposits — several of the offers reviewed above split large headline figures across multiple qualifying deposits this way. A deposit bonus more generally refers to any match tied to a specific deposit, welcome or otherwise. The percentage figure is only half the picture; the wagering requirement attached decides whether the bonus has practical value.
Free spins
Free spins are allocated for use on specified slots, often with a fixed value per spin regardless of your usual stake. Winnings from free spins are frequently credited as bonus funds subject to their own wagering requirement, rather than paid directly as cash — check whether this applies before assuming spins are "free" in the sense of being withdrawable immediately.
No-deposit bonuses
A no-deposit bonus grants a small amount of bonus funds or free spins just for registering, without requiring a deposit first. These are usually modest in value and carry high wagering requirements relative to the amount granted, along with tight maximum withdrawal caps.
Cashback bonuses
Cashback returns a percentage of net losses over a given period, typically as bonus funds rather than cash. Rivo's package above includes a 25% cashback element on top of its main match, illustrating how cashback often runs as an ongoing feature rather than a one-off welcome offer, usually with its own separate wagering condition.
Loyalty rewards
Loyalty programmes reward ongoing play with points, tiered status, or periodic bonuses. These programmes vary widely between operators in structure and value, and specific tier benefits weren't detailed in the material available for the casinos reviewed here.
Working through the wagering maths
Take a £200 deposit matched at 100%, giving £200 in bonus funds, with a 35x wagering requirement applied to deposit plus bonus. That's 35 × £400 = £14,000 in total stakes required before withdrawal. On slots contributing 100% at £2 a spin, that's 7,000 spins. Table games often contribute at a reduced rate — 10% is common — so £100 staked on blackjack might count as only £10 toward wagering, making slots the faster route to clearing a bonus in most cases. Maximum bonus bets typically cap individual stakes at £5 or less while wagering is active; exceeding that cap can void the bonus balance entirely. Bonus expiry dates commonly run from 7 to 30 days, and bonus cashout limits — a ceiling on how much bonus-derived winnings can be withdrawn — can sit well below the headline bonus figure itself. Always check these five terms together before deciding whether a bonus is worth activating.
Payment methods at non GamStop casinos
Deposit availability and withdrawal availability are not the same thing — a method accepted for depositing may not be offered for withdrawals, and vice versa. Always check both directions before relying on a specific method.
| Method | Typical deposit speed | Typical withdrawal speed | Common fees |
|---|---|---|---|
| Debit cards | Instant | 1-5 days | Usually free |
| Bank transfer | Same day to 1 day | 1-5 days | Sometimes a flat fee |
| E-wallets | Instant | Under 24 hours | Occasionally a small percentage |
| PayPal (where offered) | Instant | Under 24 hours | Rarely charged by the casino |
| Cryptocurrency | Minutes | Minutes to hours | Network fees may apply |
| Paysafecard | Instant | Not typically supported | Purchase fee may apply |
Debit card payments
Visa and Mastercard debit remain the most widely accepted deposit method across casino sites generally. Card withdrawals are slower than e-wallets in most cases and depend on your card issuer's own processing, not just the casino's approval.
Bank transfers
Direct bank transfers suit larger deposits and withdrawals but are typically the slowest method for getting funds out, since they route through both the casino's payment processor and your bank.
E-wallets
E-wallets such as Skrill and Neteller are popular at non-GamStop operators for their faster withdrawal processing compared with cards or bank transfers.
PayPal availability
PayPal support among casinos not on GamStop is limited and inconsistent — PayPal's own merchant policies are stricter for gambling than for many other e-wallets, and availability can change without notice. Confirm PayPal is actually listed as a live option on the specific casino's cashier page rather than assuming it based on general e-wallet support.
Prepaid vouchers
Paysafecard is the best-known prepaid option, and paysafe casinos not on GamStop use it mainly as a deposit-only method, since prepaid vouchers generally can't receive withdrawals — you'll need a separate method for cashing out.
Cryptocurrency payments
Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are widely supported for both deposits and withdrawals at several operators in this comparison, including CoinPoker's crypto-first model. Crypto avoids some currency conversion questions but introduces its own volatility risk between deposit and withdrawal.
GBP accounts and currency conversion
A GBP account means your balance is held and displayed in pounds sterling, avoiding conversion fees on every transaction. Several operators reviewed above run EUR or USD-denominated accounts instead, meaning a UK depositor's card transaction is converted at the point of deposit and again at withdrawal — check your card provider's own conversion fee alongside anything the casino charges.
Minimum deposits across this comparison range from roughly £10-£25 equivalent, though exact figures depend on the currency and method used.
Withdrawals, KYC checks and account restrictions
Casino approval and payment settlement are two separate stages, and confusing them is the most common source of frustration with withdrawal timing. Casino approval is the operator reviewing and authorising your withdrawal request internally — this is where most of the advertised "payout time" figures above actually apply. Payment settlement is the separate process of the money actually reaching your bank, card or e-wallet, which depends on that provider's own processing and is outside the casino's control.
Non-GamStop status has no bearing on whether identity checks apply. KYC (know-your-customer) verification — proof of identity and address — is standard practice even at operators outside UK regulation, and most require it before releasing any withdrawal above a modest threshold. Source-of-funds checks, which ask you to demonstrate where deposited money came from, are triggered more often by unusually large deposits or withdrawal patterns than by routine play, but they can add significant delay when they occur.
Withdrawal limits are typically set per transaction, per day, and per month, and bonus terms may impose additional caps — several operators above list bonus cashout limits alongside their headline percentage. If a withdrawal is delayed beyond the stated window, first check that verification is fully complete, since incomplete documentation is the single most common cause. If a dispute persists, escalation options are limited without a UK regulator behind the operator; look for a licensing authority's own complaint process, though response times and outcomes vary considerably by jurisdiction.
None of this means non-GamStop casinos guarantee instant withdrawals or skip verification — both assumptions are common misconceptions worth setting aside before depositing.
Games not on GamStop: slots, live dealer and table games
Slots not on GamStop
Slots dominate the catalogues at every operator reviewed above, ranging from roughly 800 titles at the smallest entry to over 3,500 at the largest. Popular slot categories include classic three-reel titles, video slots with bonus features, and progressive jackpot slots, where a portion of every stake feeds a jackpot that grows until won. A game's RTP (return to player) figure and volatility rating are specific to the exact version and provider of a title — the same slot name can carry a different RTP depending on which studio built the version live at a given casino, so a generic RTP figure quoted online may not match what's actually running.
Live dealer and table games
Live dealer games stream a real dealer running blackjack, roulette or baccarat in real time, typically from studios operated by providers like Evolution Gaming. Live dealer availability across this comparison varies — WinnerIsland and Nightluck both name Evolution Gaming specifically, suggesting stronger live coverage, though the exact table selection wasn't detailed in available material for every entry.
Standard digital table games — blackjack, roulette and baccarat — run on fixed RTP percentages set by the software rather than a live dealer, generally with faster round times and lower minimum stakes than their live equivalents.
Mobile casino games
Mobile compatibility is standard across modern slots and live games at these operators, typically running through a browser rather than a dedicated app, though exact device compatibility wasn't independently verified for each site here.
A large published game count or a recognisable provider logo doesn't by itself confirm game quality, fairness, or that every title is actually available to UK-based visitors — regional restrictions can apply even where an operator accepts UK signups generally.
Popular game providers at non GamStop casinos
Pragmatic Play appears across the majority of operators in this comparison, reflecting its position as one of the most widely licensed slot studios in the offshore casino space. Evolution Gaming, named specifically by WinnerIsland and Nightluck, is the dominant name in live dealer content generally. NetEnt and Microgaming are long-established studios known for classic and branded slot titles, while Play'n GO and Novomatic contribute further slot depth, particularly for European-style titles. Playtech supplies both slots and live content at several operators, and Big Time Gaming is notable for pioneering the "Megaways" mechanic used across many high-volatility slots.
A provider's presence at a casino indicates that studio's content is available there, but it doesn't independently verify that every title from that studio's catalogue is included, nor that regional versions match what's marketed elsewhere. Provider logos on a homepage are a reasonable starting signal, not confirmation of catalogue depth.
Sports betting at non GamStop casinos
Not every casino not on GamStop runs a sportsbook alongside its casino games, and sports betting availability was not confirmed for every brand in this comparison from the material supplied. Where a combined casino and sportsbook product exists, accounts and wallets are usually shared, meaning one balance funds both products rather than requiring separate registrations.
Where sportsbook features are present, they typically cover pre-match and in-play betting across major sports, alongside esports betting on titles like CS:GO and League of Legends. Bet types generally include singles, accumulators combining multiple selections into one bet, and bet builders that let you combine several markets within a single match. Cash-out — closing a bet early for a partial return before the event finishes — is a feature some sportsbooks offer, though availability varies by market and event.
Sports free bets differ meaningfully from casino bonuses. A free bet typically requires a minimum qualifying odds threshold — often 1.50 or higher in decimal odds — on a real-money bet before releasing a free bet token of equal or lesser value. Unlike a casino deposit bonus, the free bet's own stake is usually not returned if the bet wins; only the winnings are paid out. Expiry windows for free bets are often shorter than casino bonus periods, commonly a matter of days rather than weeks.
Self-exclusion and account controls at casinos not on GamStop
Non-GamStop status means a casino sits outside the UK's centralised self-exclusion scheme, but that does not mean self-exclusion tools are unavailable. Reputable operators offer their own deposit limits, loss limits, time-outs and account closure requests, though these controls are enforced only by that individual operator, not shared across linked brands or sister sites unless explicitly stated. Crucially, this page is not a route around a GAMSTOP exclusion. If you have self-excluded through GAMSTOP, that decision was made for your own protection, and seeking out non-GamStop casinos undermines it. Gambling blocking software, such as Gamban or BetBlocker, can restrict access to gambling sites at a device level and works independently of any single operator's account controls. GamCare, via the National Gambling Helpline, offers free and confidential support for anyone concerned about their gambling, GAMSTOP registered or not.
Weighing up your options among the best non GamStop casinos
Comparing the best casinos not on GamStop comes down to matching bonus terms, payment methods and game selection against what you'd realistically use, not the size of a headline figure. A large percentage match with steep wagering can be worth less than a smaller offer with clearer conditions. Payment currency, PayPal availability, and identity verification requirements all affect the practical experience more than a bonus percentage alone. Licensing remains the one factor every reader should verify independently before depositing — treat any figures or timeframes above as a starting point for your own checks, not a final answer.